How Should Christians Approach Politics? | Chris St. John

Bob: Hey, welcome back to All In To Win. I’m Bob Vander Plaats with The Family Leader. And I’m glad you have tuned in, hopefully again, and not again for the first time. So whatever you’re doing, even if you’re taking a break from work, this is worth it. Tune in, we have a special guest. All of our guests are special, but our special guest today is a friend of mine. He’s also a team member of ours at The Family Leader here. He actually lives in Phoenix, AZ. So he’s back in Iowa. He’s a little bit cooler here. But if you wouldn’t mind, please welcome Chris St. John of The Family Leader. Chris, how you doing?

Chris: Bob, thanks. I am doing great today. Love being here.

Bob: So Chris, you’ve had kind of an interesting path to be where you’re here now at The Family Leader. Tell us about this circuitous path. And you know, how did you get here?

Chris: It’s an interesting story. Or not. But yeah, I think it’s interesting. I am originally from Des Moines, IA, so it is great to be home. Love it, and I went to college to be a pastor and served in vocational pastoral ministry for a little over a dozen years.

Bob: Where’d you go to school to begin with?

Chris: Baptist Bible College in Springfield, MO. Down in the Ozarks.

Bob: I got to tell you a quick story, is that I filled the pulpit at my hometown, and not my home church, but in a church of my hometown. And after I gave the message, out in the narthex commons area, I had a guy come up and say, “You know, we ought to take up a collection to send you to seminary.” And another guy who is standing right there, he goes, “Oh, no, no, no, no. We don’t want to wreck him.” So you went to college to become a pastor?

Chris: I did, yeah. It’s now called Mission University in Springfield. Great town, home of Bass Pro Shops, and loved it.

Bob: What age were you when you thought, you know, God’s calling on your life was going into ministry?

Chris: Yeah, I’m an alumni of Des Moines Christian School, and they did a lot of great things to help me look at life through a Christian worldview. And so there’s the plug for DMC, Go Lions. And I just decided that I would love to go get a Bible certificate and just kind of, as I go off and do whatever I felt maybe I’d do vocationally, I’d just be more conversant with the Word of God. While I was there, though, I was confident that I needed to go into vocational ministry, and it wasn’t really a lightning strike or some other kind of clarion call, but I just knew in my knower that God wanted me to teach the Word of God to, at that time, young adults, students, and it was a great ride.

Bob: Wow. So when you got out of that college, where did you go right away?

Chris: So immediately went to West TX. Abilene. Prettiest town I’ve ever seen. I actually disagree with that song. I won’t sing it.

Bob: Oh please, we love singing.

Chris: Yeah, I know we do. I don’t want to ruin this episode, though, with my singing acumen or lack thereof.

But I spent three and a half years in Abilene, TX, as a youth pastor and loved every minute of it. It was awesome. And then decided I wanted to get a seminary education, and got wrecked by doing that, and moved to Kentucky and went to Southern Seminary, and then finished up at Campbellsville University, both Southern Baptist institutions, and also served in a church there as well, and loved also every minute of that.

Bob: And that was in Kentucky?

Chris: It was in Kentucky, yeah. And somehow got away without a Southern drawl.

Bob: Well, so talk about being a youth pastor because every time I’m around youth pastors, one is they kind of energize me. I’m inspired by them. Frankly, I think a lot of them are just flat-out nuts for what they do. But boy, God has used a lot of former youth pastors to do great work in the Kingdom.

Chris: No question. In fact, the youth ministers that were a part of my formation spiritually here in Des Moines were, and still are, a huge part of my life. And looking back at that time, being the bozo, you know, 15, 16-year-old young man that I was, they imparted the Word of God into my life in a very winsome way, very influential way. And just don’t discount the–parents, especially–the ministry that youth pastors have in your teenagers’ lives, because it makes a difference and it sticks. The Word of God does not return void.

Bob: Amen, yeah. So the four years you were there, though, in Abilene, and you said, you know, those are the four greatest years of my life. And when you look back at it, you ever wonder, why did I leave Abilene?

Chris: Sure. Well, you know, part of that was the desire to further my education. You know, the more you know, and the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know. And I did want to dig more into the Scriptures and learn more about the Word of God. And I saw seminary was definitely something that I felt God compelling me to do. And so we decided as a family to move to Kentucky to do that. Could have stayed in Abilene, but Kentucky was the place that we needed to go to, and so we did. And looking back, that was the right decision for us. But being a man who also had family in Arizona, we made our way to Arizona. And at that time I thought I’ll continue in ministry. But I’ve also had this just passion, not only for public policy, but seeing the right men and women run for office. And God, in His abundant kindness, allowed me to do fundraising for an organization that’s the sister for The Family Leader in Arizona called Center for Arizona Policy. I’d never done fundraising except for praying for the offering. And they took a chance on me in 2012, another great song. And yeah, so I was able to merge my passion for Christian worldview and take that to the public square and public policy. And God gave me the desires of my heart. And I was able to do that for a dozen years in Phoenix, AZ.

Bob: You know, when I came to The Family Leader, now 16 years ago–it’s hard to believe it was that long–but 16 years ago, the Center for Arizona Policy, Cathi Herrod, longtime executive there, who would have been my peer. I just looked at them as crème de la crème at what they did. What was it about Center for Arizona Policy? Like, you know, this is my passion. This fills the intersection where I believe God has me right now.

Chris: Goodness, yeah. Just seeing, you know, the core issues that they embraced and championed at the Arizona Legislature: life, marriage, family, religious freedom. You know, and just a short three years after I arrived there, the Obergefell decision hit our country, and so there’s the attack on, you know, traditional marriage, biblical marriage in our country. So immediately the charge was, “OK, so let’s restore a culture of biblical marriage in our country,” and that–it wasn’t a time of mourning. And that this is where I believe that Center for Arizona Policy is world-class, because we didn’t sit there and lament. We thought, “OK, this is what we’re going to do. This is God’s answer for our time. And let’s just pivot and let’s rebuild that culture of marriage.” And I saw that time and time again, both with the life issue, religious freedom, and all the attacks seemingly in our culture. It wasn’t that we were culture warriors. We just wanted to uphold a standard of truth and do it as winsomely as possible, but also as righteously as possible. And I believe that’s why God blesses that ministry there in Arizona.

Bob: Well, you know, we looked at Arizona a lot and we think, as iron sharpens iron, part of where The Family Leader is today, I’d give credit to the Center for Arizona Policy as being part of that, of us trying to follow their lead. And what it takes is, as you well know at Center for Arizona Policy and now at The Family Leader, God has three institutions: church, family, government. We always say, where those three concentric circles, so to speak, where they intersect, that’s where we play. And that can be a pretty interesting area to navigate. A very interesting area to steward.

I had a pastor say to a congregation one time, didn’t say it in those words about concentric circles and the crosshairs like I just put, but basically said, if you’re called to be in that space, steward it really well. If you’re not called to be in that space, stay the heck out of it, because you can do a lot of damage there as well. And the other part that I would say is, you know, Martin Luther, basically saying, you know, the hottest point of the sphere, that if that’s the hottest point of the battle, that’s where you need to do business. And a lot of times I believe that is the hottest point of the battle.

So how did that shape your—I mean, going to Des Moines Christian, going off to a Bible college, teaching the youth in Abilene, TX, going to Kentucky, getting a seminary degree, being in a local church, going to Arizona. How did that all shape you to say, “this is how we play”?

Chris: Oh my goodness. Seeing the family continually under attack, you know, and it’s the enemy. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. And you know, we can lament the laws, we can lament the culture, but we know that this is first and foremost a spiritual attack. And knowing that the Word of God, as I mentioned minutes ago, does not return void. And we, as ministers of God in the local churches, are imparting that word to families, to students, to kids, and knowing first and foremost that that is our call. But then as I moved into this other sphere, you know, right in that intersection where those concentric circles meet, I believe that good public policy also makes a difference. Because, you know, we also are educating our kids. And so parents having the ability to educate their kids, whether that’s at home or in a private school setting, or all the different variations now. And Iowa is a beautiful example now, of course, of school choice. Arizona being one such state as well. And it’s growing across the country. That isn’t going to happen without public policy and the organizations that undergird those pieces of legislation, like The Family Leader, like Center for Arizona Policy. And so having been in the local church, I really appreciate the relationship between the Family Policy Council organizations in Iowa and Arizona, and as a pastor previously in a local church, because we couldn’t do it without a ministry like you guys.

Bob: Yeah. So there’s some Christians who have kind of a “Two Kingdom” philosophy and, you know, “We shouldn’t get involved in this arena of government or this arena of politics.” From your biblical understanding, why should Christians say, “No, no, no, I need to be involved in that arena”?

Chris: Yeah, and I think, you know, I’m a Gen Xer, and one very pervasive ideology or school of thought within evangelical Christianity, at least in my time, has been that politics is dirty and we need to have our hands off. We need to just stay out of the fray and focus on the Word of God and evangelism. And while I agree to an extent that yes, let’s focus on winning people for Christ. One of my favorite theologians, and I’m sure you would agree because he’s Dutch, Abraham Kuyper, said there is not a square inch in which God cannot say, “It’s all mine. It’s mine.” And that includes the public square, that includes the State House, that includes city councils. And so why would we take a step back and say I can’t go there? So we need to fill, as Greg Baker often says, we need to fill those halls of power with His teachings. And so that doesn’t mean that we go in and lambast said legislator for how he voted on a particular issue. Let’s build a relationship with those people. Let’s share Christ with those people. Let’s open a meeting with prayer and close it with prayer and have Scripture in between. And to me, that is asking the church to be the church, asking the pastor to be the pastor, and not usurp the responsibility and carry a hammer. We just want them to share the Word of God. And in so doing, we’re going to see–it’s a long game–and we’re going to see generational change in the years to come. And that’s what excites me about our model. That’s what excites me about seeing Christians take an active step toward our public square and not back away from it.

Bob: I think, you know, Greg talks about using the Apostle Paul there, filled Jerusalem with the Lord’s teaching, and there’s a lot of examples. Joseph and Pharaoh, as Greg will say. They provided the biggest food bank ever known in history, but they had to work together. Joseph and Pharaoh, you have Nathan and David, you have Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar. There’s all kinds of biblical examples. Darla and I were just on the Footsteps of Paul journey last year, but a year ago this time we were actually, I think, in Ephesus. You cannot walk down the streets of Ephesus without understanding that Paul was confronting the leaders of the time. He was engaging the leaders of the time, the political leaders of the time, for what was happening in the culture. You know, when you go to Athens, Greece, and you go to Mars Hill? Paul’s taking on the academia elite of the time who are building idols, tombs to unknown gods, and he’s introducing the one true living God. How should Christians view government as an institution of God’s?

Chris: Yeah, I mean, it is an institution of God’s, and it’s mentioned thousands of times in the Word of God. And so, you know, we are commanded to honor government and government officials in Romans and other passages of Scripture. And as such, the way that we approach honor looks very different for different contexts of government, but in our country, we need to vote, we need to get involved. That’s the way that we can love our neighbor. That’s the way that we can love our city and take care of the welfare of the city. And so we need to get involved in ways that look like Christ. It looks like bringing the third kingdom down and loving our city well. We’re in Babylon. We’re not trying to infiltrate or obfuscate. We’re trying to just make a difference while we’re here in this space.

Bob: Yeah. You know, you take a look at that and sometimes, you know, we’ll get candidates who want to be President of the United States, or they’ll want to be Governor of Iowa, or they’ll want to be a US Senator. They’ll want to be something. And we ask a basic question, “What’s the purpose of government?” Because you need to understand what it’s there for. What’s the origin of it there? And it’s not about the tax break for the blue bicycle. That’s not the purpose of government. The purpose of government is to pursue righteousness, to pursue justice. It’s to bring order to a culture. Our God’s a God of order, not a God of chaos. And so the more chaos that we have, the more division we have, is typically because now we are drifting—or as Scripture says be careful you do not drift in Hebrews 2 verse 1—but we’re now drifting away from God’s heart, His principles, His design, His created order. And when you remove the righteousness and justice, so you talk about redefining the institution of marriage or determining what is life, what isn’t life, because you tell a culture, hey, you can kill the babies, you’ll kill 60 million of them, when you take away the design of the parameters for marriage also and it’s kind of anything goes. So I get all that. But you’re a former pastor, you’re one who’s educated, you know, I’m not. So you can talk to pastors better than I can. And used to lead the Church Ambassador Network as well for the Center for Arizona Policy. But you’ve run into pastors before that say, “Listen, I don’t want to be political.” What’s your response to them?

Chris: Good. Don’t be political. Let’s go be the church in a place that is clearly dark, where there is clear spiritual warfare, and let’s do the work of the ministry together, arm in arm. We’re not called as a para-church ministry. We are not called to usurp the work of the church. We want to undergird the work of the pastor. And we would love to partner with you, pastor, and find out what it is that you need and how you would like to operate. And we want to come alongside you in your work and help just make you better at what you do on a daily basis. And you know, one of the benefits that we as a ministry have is that we do have access at the Capitol, and we can get those meetings rather easily. And so let us do that. Let us get you in front of these decision-makers, these elected officials, these leaders, and you do the work of the ministry, share Jesus with those people. And I’ve seen it time and time again in Arizona. It’s happening in a dozen-plus states here, almost 20 states here around our country, because of God’s good work through the Daniel impact in these Church Ambassador Network states.

Bob: Yeah, God’s really blessed the model. And you know, we remind pastors all the time, you know, we don’t need you to be political. But we do need you to be biblical. And we need you to be culturally relevant. So if something’s happening in the culture and Scripture speaks into it, you have to be able to give voice to it. Because as a shepherd of a church, if you don’t give voice to that, you’re really telling your sheep, your congregation, this must be OK, because I’m not giving a voice to it. If there’s something that is, you know, something important is at stake—the institution of marriage, sanctity of life, religious liberty, parental rights, whatever the case might be—if something happens that’s against God’s heart there, we just ask you to give voice to it. Don’t be political, but doggone it, be biblical. Explain a little bit. Because you were a shepherd of the church, and we work with shepherds of the church. You talked about, we have access. The reason we have access isn’t because we’re some great sheikhs at The Family Leader. The reason we have access is because of who we represent, and that’s the body of Christ. And that’s all these churches who are Bible-believing, gospel-teaching churches. So we’re working with the remnant of the church. Talk about this shepherd-to-shepherd concept that we have here at The Family Leader, and what you did at Arizona, what we do here in Iowa and the other states.

Chris: Absolutely. I think having seen it firsthand in Arizona and having been a pastor and then being the Church Ambassador Network director in Arizona, it’s uncanny the similarities between being a pastor and a legislator or an elected official in a state, because you’re going to make unpopular decisions. You’re herding cats, you’re leading people, you are alone. There’s a loneliness about being in that type of leadership. So once you start as a director, I would maybe make a leading question or two, and you would get those two people talking in a room, and they would find similarities, and those relationships would just take off. And it was beautiful to watch. And so I have story after story, as does Greg and as do many of the directors across the country, where a legislator or a leader gets in crisis. Their first call is one of the pastors that they encountered along the way in one of those shepherd-to-shepherd meetings. And that’s where you begin to see the power of relationship, moving at the speed of relationship, those who have come to Christ as a result of these shepherd-to-shepherd meetings. And that’s where the fruit really begins. And it’s fun, it’s exciting.

Bob: I’ll tell you, when I was in London, there’s a guy by the name of Colin Bloom. Colin used to work with the Parliament and he was at Downing as well, 10 Downing St., so the Prime Minister’s Office. But we’re at Parliament, Darla and I were with Colin, and Colin said, you know, when these guys get elected, he used guys, but universal guys. He said when these guys get elected, he goes, they come here and they’re all that. I mean, it’s a big deal to be serving in Parliament. And he goes, sometimes they forget where they came from. And so when the shepherds of the church are engaged, as we do here, and you feed into that elected official, say it’s Kim Reynolds, we’re going to feed into her as a person. We care about you, Kim. We’re glad you’re elected to government. We care about you. We care about Kevin, we care about your family, care about your kids, your grandkids. And the teacher in me says Kim doesn’t care how much you know until she knows how much you care. But then we say you’re a shepherd of government. You have a big job. And who better to speak into a shepherd of government than a shepherd of the church? Bringing in God’s timeless word, His prophetic voice to a culture. And so if you visit with Kim Reynolds, and Kim Reynolds believes this model should be all over the country because she has seen the impact of it, the value that has been in her leadership and advancing righteous and just policy for the state of Iowa. Then the third one is, what we really learned is how can you two partner? How can the church and government partner to seek the welfare of the city, to meet community needs, to be the hands and feet of Jesus Christ? Not where the church gets money from government because then government gets credit. We want Christ to get the credit. And when the church starts seeing that, I think they start seeing government as a mission field. And as you know, when you see something as a mission field, it really matters who do you send into that mission field? What do you hope the church does in raising up good godly candidates to run for public office?

Chris: That’s a great question. And I think that that is, again, another long game part of this. Because once pastors get to the Capitol and they see these men and women who maybe they’ve only previously seen on the news, and maybe they think of them as kind of this caricature version of a person. But then they’ve sat in a meeting with them and they’ve maybe heard them cry. And what hasn’t been said yet, and I think it’s worth just sharing, is that these shepherd-to-shepherd meetings are not bipartisan. They’re non-partisan. We meet with Republicans, we meet with Democrats, we’ll meet with anybody. We see them as people. And there’s a brokenness about people, as we all know. And so when we see people get voted in and voted out, there is a connectivity to those people. So as these shepherds of the church begin to see who is coming in and out of office, there’s this almost aha moment where what if we begin to identify people from within our churches who are discipled and understand the issues within a biblical scope, a lens, a worldview? And those are the people that we’re raising up to run for public office. And, you know, the things that are upstream of politics then come into those halls of power, if you will. And then those are the people who are casting those votes in the future. That is exciting stuff.

Bob: I tell you, one of the greatest things that it’s been a blessing for me to watch, for me to see, and Greg and I have talked about this—matter of fact, it was like when chocolate and peanut butter came together and go, “Oh, we got Reese’s.” We were in a meeting. We’re just talking about it. And all of a sudden it’s like there’s been a mindset shift. And the mindset shift is when the church sees government as a mission field. And when the church sees government as a mission field, they’re going to be concerned about who do we send there? What policies get enacted there? How do we come alongside these people leading this institution of government? Because it’s a mission field, OK? And you need the leaders of the church, you need the body of Christ to be engaged in that mission field. But then when government, because of that interaction, sees the church as a transformative resource, and all of a sudden the government goes back to the bride of Christ going, “Who’s going to fix foster care and orphan care?” Scripture is very clear about how we respond to the widow and to the orphan. That’s the body of Christ, and only the body of Christ can be the answer and be the solution there. So that mindset shift has been really, really key. If you were visiting with a pastor today who was just kind of reluctant or just kind of like, you know, I’m not at all sure about… what would your encouragement be to that pastor?

Chris: Come and see. Yeah, come and see. Some things are too good to be true, but this is not one of them. Because I’ve seen the skeptics just at least say, ‘OK, I’ll come and check it out. I’ll test drive the car. I’ll come and kick the tires and then say I get it.’ And then say, ‘Yeah, I get it.’ Just come and watch this model work. This is the secret sauce to getting the shepherds of government, the shepherds of the church, working together for the state, the government to see the church as the transformative model that it really is. And as you well know, Bob, there are other states now calling Iowa, saying, “What in the world is going on?

Bob: Something’s changing, something’s happening. Our numbers are being inverted. Tangible numbers are being inverted. It’s all about leading with the gospel, advancing God’s Kingdom, not advancing a political party.

Well, what’s interesting though, I think about that. I’m thinking of that pastor that’s reluctant or maybe like, “How do I do this?” Story after story. And you know the stories really well where you almost had to drag the pastor into the Capitol, but once they came and saw, it was like, “OK, now we need to drag you out of here,” because it’s like, “I want to stay here because I see the difference it’s making.” And so this 4-i model that you alluded to: Inspire the church. That’s our anchor. That’s where we say Christ gave us a Plan A, not a Plan B. And you’ve seen that happen state after state, 18 states now. And then we say Impact elections, not just with anybody, but with ministers of God, who are playing for an audience of one to be a blessing to many. And we’re not so interested in lobbying as we are in discipling. You know, how can we come alongside you? How can we breathe the Word of God into you? How can we bring shepherds of the church to you? But then Influencing righteous and just policy, which we talked about. And then the fourth ‘i’, Igniting biblical partnership. As you mentioned, we have… it’s hard to even state how many people are coming to us saying this needs to be in all 50 states plus DC. You’re in advancement. If there’s donors watching this right now, what would you say to the donor when you take a look at this model, what God’s doing with it?

Chris: When you think about what is spent on an election every two years, every four years, there’s a lot of money that’s thrown at an election. This is significantly and substantively different because this is eternal, this is Kingdom. And we can see how God is moving and God is getting the credit. Do we need to play in elections financially? Absolutely. But this is a unique and biblical model where we are seeing donors getting a return on investment that is exponential because it is—this is not hyperbole—it is returning an eternal difference from now until Jesus comes back. And so what we would say is come and see. Come and talk to us. Go to thefamilyleader.com, call us, talk to us. We would love to share more with you about what it is that we are doing and what we are seeing God do in the Lives Transformative model here in the state of Iowa and beyond because it is truly, truly making a difference.

Bob: You know, Henry Blackaby, in his book—what’s the book called? Experiencing God. He said don’t make God’s call on your life that complicated. And in advancement, you know, I would say don’t make God’s call on your wallet that complicated. Go where God’s working and go all in with them. And right now God is working here, and I believe it makes a difference comprehensively. Whether you’re running a corporation or a business, the freedom to have free enterprise. Or you’re raising children, parental rights and where you get to educate your child, and the freedom you have to educate your children–Deuteronomy 6. Giving every life a chance to live out every planned and ordained day that God has designed for you to live out from conception to natural death. Celebrating biblical marriage, one man, one woman, the family, the way God instituted family. Because you get the family right, you’re going to get a whole lot more else right. But to me, it’s a whole idea about go all in. And what would you say to a donor like that?

Chris: Del Tackett at the end of The Truth Project, a lot of times he gets asked, “Well, what should you do?” And he’ll say, “I don’t know what you should do, but you should do it and go all in.” And I believe that with all of my heart, Bob. I think that we have a unique opportunity. And we were talking just the other day about, let’s invest now while we’re living, and let’s see the return on investment while we’re here. And I think there’s immense value in that. And we would just love to show you what God is doing now. So please prayerfully consider and go all in with us today.

Bob: So what do you say? I’m just picturing, what do you say to the person who was sitting there in the chair going, you know what, I just don’t care. I don’t care. I’ve looked at both parties, looked at both candidates. I looked at the institution of government. It’s all a train wreck. It’s all a mess. I don’t care. And all of a sudden they listen to something like this. They’re going, you know what, maybe I’m rethinking this. What would you tell that person to do? 

Chris: Yeah, yeah, this is not… there’s nothing new under the sun. This is a biblical model. This is not some aha moment that any one of us had, you know, standing out on the golf course one day. Unfold your arms, and, you know, don’t try and rethink giving in some way because we haven’t rethought ministry. This is an exciting biblical model that we are seeing bear fruit. Come alongside us and invest. Go all in. Because I’m telling you, this is not Republican. This is not Democrat. This is not throwing stupid money at every two-year cycle. This is a long game in the same direction, and it’s bearing much fruit in the lives of men and women who are called to public office. We are going to see people run for public office who do know, love, and serve Jesus, and it’s going to make a difference in a state like Iowa. We’ve seen it for 12 years, and it’s going to happen in other states as well.

Bob: Yeah, we say, you know, this is an opportunity to have a long-term harvest and short-term wins. If you focus on this, you will get short-term wins. You’ll get a lot of the wins you want short-term, but it’s going to lead to a long-term harvest. So I would say if you’re that guy, if you’re that woman, if you’re sitting around the dining table tonight, I would say, pray about it. Go to God in prayer. You know, if God’s unsettling your heart, He’s doing it for a reason. I’d go and pray about it. Then I’d do what Chris said. Come and see, come and see. Check us out, take a look. Go to our website, thefamilyleader.com. But then when you get to that point, don’t make it too complicated, but give your best.

This is the potluck. Give your best. This is the coach in me. If you’re going to come out of that locker room and you’re just going to play the game and play the role, if you don’t have the passion to win, don’t play. That’s where I believe Jesus says “joyful heart.” When you’re willing to give with a cheerful heart, when you’re willing to give with a joyful heart, I want you. If you’re not, you know what, I don’t know what you’re doing. Go do whatever. But when you’re there, go all in. And I want the accountants, I want the estate attorneys, and I definitely want your kids and grandkids to go, “I think they’re nuts. I think they’re going nuts. What are they doing?” That’s when you know you’re all in. And we say an acronym here for NUTS is Never Underestimate The Spirit. The best people I love to work with are nuts. Youth pastors are nuts. I love working with them, so I would say ignite that passion, seek the welfare of the city, team up with The Family Leader, and let’s make a difference in this generation and the next generation’s lifetime.

Chris: Amen.

Bob: Chris, thanks for joining us.

Chris: Thanks.

Bob: And thank you for tuning in to All In To Win. And again, I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I do. Leave a five-star review. If you don’t believe it was that good, don’t leave a review. But if you believe it was great, leave a five-star plus review. Everybody’s into plus today. Do plus and do a five-star review and then share it with your friends. If this episode spoke to you, go to thefamilyleader.com. Go all in.